Alternative Investing Through a Fiduciary Lens with Colin Lynch

It's my pleasure to welcome Colin Lynch, who is managing director and head of alternative investments at TD Asset Management based in Toronto, Canada. He provides strategic guidance and oversight to all real estate, mortgage, private debt, and infrastructure investment management activities, including acquisitions, divestitures, product development, and portfolio management.

He was previously responsible for the Canadian and international real estate strategies, including fund design and structuring, as well as the implementation and oversight of acquired assets. Colin serves as the chair of the Alternative Investments committee. Colin, welcome to the podcast. It's, lovely to see you again.

[00:01:06] Colin Lynch: Thanks for having me, Chris. Great to be here.

[00:01:08] Chris Battaglia: Yeah. Well, we began the conversation only a few weeks ago when you and I were together in Tokyo at our Global Fiduciary Symposium in Japan. And I'm really pleased to welcome you back and to do a deeper dive into some of the things that you were able to discuss on stage with your team, which were deeply appreciated by the, Japanese institutional audience.

But for the members of the Advisorpedia and Spotify community through our global Fiduciary Leaders Podcast, it would be great if you could just spend a few minutes talking a little bit about your background and your view of, investment, especially alternative investments and how your, sort of, earlier experience inform your current approach to being head of Alts at, TD Asset Management.

[00:01:55] Colin Lynch: Yeah, absolutely. So first off, I was very impressed by the Symposium in Japan. We had a lot of great conversations. The room was very full. Those conversations were great because the level of interest in investing around the world was palpable in that room. And so it was just a delight to meet a lot of wonderful people and to have a lot of great conversations.

And so thanks for having us there. As it relates to the background I do have a rather, I'd say unconventional background because my earliest days were as a musician. And I used to concert tour and perform quite extensively, both domestically here in Canada, I did do some concert tours outside of Canada as well.

And today, I express a lot of my musical appreciation a couple different ways. One is composition. I have served on the board of the Toronto Symphony Orchestra And that life, up to when I used to do about the hundred performances a year, does inform my role today from a number of respects.

One respect is performance. the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, just like other major orchestras around the world, perform at the highest level, and that requires a great depth of knowledge, a great level of understanding, a high degree of precision and clarity. And in order to do that, you need to be able to not just know what you're doing, but be able to plan for contingencies and do something that I describe as reading the moment.

When you are delivering a concert, you have to know what you're delivering, but you also have to read the audience and read the room. And performance on a given day might be different based off of your reading of the room. That's critical to investing. We go through different environments, things happen.

We have long-term fundamental base perspective on what is relevant from a risk adjusted return spaces in a portfolio for investors. But we also have to understand how the world changes and be able to be nimble and flexible to digest the new information, to compare it to what we have done today in our rigorous understanding and to challenge ourselves to understand, does that change?

That's the investment side. The people side is also integral to my role in terms of leading our franchise on a global basis. And so whether it's research or originations, transactions, whether it's asset management, finance, tax reporting functions, we all have to work together as a team. And if we don't work together as a team across geographies, across asset classes, and if we don't have elements of what makes a great team click, which is yes, tremendous skills and rigorous performance at the highest level, but also a respect for colleagues. We do not believe in the star culture. And we also believe, however, in a culture where every opinion is valued. We have something called the obligation to dissent, which means as we look at an investment idea, if somebody on the team, whether very junior or very senior, believes foundationally from a data informed perspective, from a research point of view, that that investment does not make sense, their obligation, obligation, is to dissent.

[00:05:50] Chris Battaglia: They have a fiduciary responsibility, in fact, and I can see why you're so successful in Japan with that matchup of philosophy and thinking.

[00:06:01] Colin Lynch: Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great point because at the end of the day, that's how we orient our philosophy. We are a fiduciary, and if you take that perspective first, then you are required, you're obligated to ensure that you're never silent if you have a rigorous perspective that is contrary to the group.

The last thing I'd say and is groupthink in the investment world is like cancer.

[00:06:35] Chris Battaglia: Yeah.

[00:06:36] Colin Lynch: The more, you have it, the quicker it takes you down. And so that's another way of call it the obligation to descent, but we think having an environment that fosters the ability for folks to perform, but also to contribute such that we are able, collectively with our group and large teams, we're collectively able to make better decisions.

[00:07:01] Chris Battaglia: I hear and see a lot of investment cultures over my 40 year career. And what you're, where you're speaking about is not easy to achieve. I wanna get back to a little bit about how you actually foster that culture and how you manage that culture as a very important asset management company as it relates to your relationships in Japan, because I think there are some commonalities there. And obviously some very important reasons why I think the Japanese investment community really embrace, specifically the asset owner community, embrace your approach there.

But before we get to that, I want to connect to another important investment culture, and that's one of the Canadian Pension System and culture. And you have some deep roots there. You're based in Toronto, even though I've spoken to you in many parts of the world, and you've got teams around the world. But Canada's an important place for you both geographically but also inve investment ethos wise.

And we spoke earlier about the development of Canada's famous Maple Eight. That collectively manage over $2.4 trillion in assets, and that's nearly double the size of Japan's GPIF, which is the largest single pension fund in the world. But what kind of behavior, ethos, decision making, governance qualities have you adopted at TD from the strategy of Canada's largest pension plans?

[00:08:25] Colin Lynch: Yeah, it's a great question. And a little bit of perspective. Over the years, both from working in an investment world environment and being based in Canada, but also having sat on a number of boards, investment boards, organizations that also have investment committees. I've sat beside senior execs, IEC suite, CEO level of a number of the Maple Eight, and through that experience and through just being involved in the industry, I certainly have had quite a bit of exposure and therefore some perspective.

One of the biggest lessons, I think, of the Maple Eight, in terms of success, has been to be invested. And to build on diversification through cycles. The Maple Lake, which are not uniform, they've had different strategies and different approaches over the years, but collectively they have been involved at scale in the private markets. And that has provided a few benefits. One is the return enhancement, and I think people look at that, whether you're talking private equity or the infrastructure space or the real estate space, venture cap space, even natural resources and commodities, et cetera.

Return enhancements for sure. One of the underappreciated but very significant benefits is lower standard deviation, lower volatility. And so the combination of both, particularly in dynamics where you could have material drawdowns in the public markets, has produced some benefits over the decades. I would also say, however, having set that first point, the performance has been mixed.

I'd say where there has been challenges on the performance side has been where diversification has been less rigorously adhered to. So there are some Maple Eights that have made significant bets, I call it, that on particular asset class in a particular geography that were sizable. That geography might be emerging markets, for instance, a particular large emerging market.

And frankly, some of those bets haven't worked out. And I think the lesson here is twofold. One lesson is around focus, right? And the other lesson is around diversification. So,

[00:11:15] Chris Battaglia: When you say focused, are you, meaning concentration or are you, meaning what do you mean by that exactly?

[00:11:21] Colin Lynch: Yeah. So concentration more on the diversification. Okay. So that's the second point, which is just absolutely critical to manage the allocations across the asset classes. So, I would say though I love real estate, I'm not sure it should be 25% of the portfolio. an investment in India real estate at 5% might be too big.

Et cetera. So that's one side. The other side around focus has to do with the nature of some of these investments have gone in pretty deep into what I would call operations. So in the private markets, you can have the portfolio decision, the investment decision, do we buy, do we sell, and then how do we actually asset manage this?

Now you can do that yourself, right? Or you can hire other people to run the operation. So in the real estate run, the property management, right? In the private equity space, you can get really deeply involved in the management of particular companies and you can embed the investment team on the management teams of these different companies.

And you can go further and further down, particularly if you own a hundred percent. And what I would submit is sometimes the growth of those operations can get to a point where they become so significant that it might be confusing relative to the original objective, which is simply generate good risk adjusted returns.

And if you look at the Maple Eight, some have moved in and out of the operations game, including some very recently. And I would submit it's because of that, call it tension, right? Some have managed that very well. Some have large operations on the private side and they manage it with the investment function.

Others have had greater challenge of, navigating that dynamic. So that's where, I mean about focus. And the focus point is are you an investor or are you an operator? And it's hard to do necessarily both. It can be done, but it's hard. And then more important, within the context of your total portfolio, what are your exposures?

Are you too overexposed in particular areas, especially if you do not have on the ground expertise in those areas.

[00:13:50] Chris Battaglia: I appreciate that explanation. It reminds me I had the great pleasure of moderating a panel discussion last year with your team, with a very important energy company based in Sweden.

Can you maybe give us a quick two, three minute example? Of how that experience that you're learning from Maple Eight, if I'm hearing you correctly, informed your approach to working with those kinds of companies on the ground and what that means explicitly for investors.

[00:14:20] Colin Lynch: Yeah, absolutely. So Rabbalshede Kraft is a company, based in Sweden. And

[00:14:25] Chris Battaglia: I'm glad you, mentioned the name because I had it in the back of my mind, but I wasn't perfectly sure I could pronounce it correctly.

[00:14:32] Colin Lynch: Absolutely, and it goes RK for short and it's easier to pronounce than actually to write down. It's a long name, but it's it's a great company and it's a good example actually.

Number one, geography, right? So developed market versus emerging market. And at the end of the day, risk adjusted returns are really what we're after, right? So many people look at the higher return opportunity in emerging markets, but might not fully appreciate the risk element of said markets: currency, government policy, which is very integral, by the way, in the infrastructure space.

So stability and predictability of policy, very important.

And then exposure to sort of market shocks. So geopolitics, trade, different events. So that was a very important element as to our original investment thesis into Rabbalshede Kraft, number one. Number two, the predictability of policy in the Swedish market, also important.

Number three our ability to grow the operation. And there's two elements to that. First element is a great management team. And so over time we stepped in, from our original investment to now a hundred percent ownership of that company. And through that we have been able to, call it add to, complement, and upgrade, not necessarily just by adding people, but helping those people develop the skills and capabilities of that team to be able to lead a larger platform. And then because of that, that team has been able to identify M&A opportunities for us, tuck in acquisitions, and that's really additive to the team because now you've got a management team that's highly capable, that's growing, and is able to find great opportunities.

So now we're expanding into Finland. Now we're looking at Norway. We've tucked in Ireland. And all of a sudden you go from single country to multiple country, and then a single type of renewable energy, wind, to multiple types. Wind, solar, you can get battery going as well. And so, now you have multiple sort of types and functions from a renewable energy, multiple types, geographies, and that helps reduce the risk profile of the investment.

At the same time, it scales. And so that's, if you take it back to the Maple Eight, so not emerging market, developed market, there is some sort of idiosyncratic country risk. There is currency risk. As we expand that company and we reduce that because we got more geographies, we reduce the currency risk, but also we expand the types of renewable energy and the functions along the renewable energy spectrum and reduce the risk from that perspective as well.

[00:17:40] Chris Battaglia: I appreciate that, that deeper dive, and thanks for giving us a sort of a mini case study approach to energy and energy transition. Let's zoom out a little bit and talk about asset allocation, obviously as the most important driver of returns. I think I could say that blanketly still, that statement still kind of works. But relative to advising on asset allocation and at the risk of only staying in the private markets lane, which is a real risk because investors seem to have a great appetite there.

How, are you advising clients now on asset allocation in general? And it's okay by the way, for us to go down the private markets sleeve again, because there's a lot of things to discuss there. But overall on asset allocation, as it relates to alternatives and private markets. And if you could elaborate a little bit more on the opportunities specifically in infrastructure and some other areas, where the best opportunities are that you're looking at and things that our investor audience might be interested in.

[00:18:42] Colin Lynch: Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start real quickly on, right now I do sit on two major boards, in outside the call it the TD world. And through that perspective, one of which is an investment board that I chair, we allocate across the public and private markets. And so, and then I also sit within the TD world on something called the Wealth Asset Allocation Committee.

And that allocates across all the investible asset classes that we have within TD. So I start there because there is the debate as to do you go into privates A and then, right.

[00:19:19] Chris Battaglia: Can I just interrupt for a second? With your TD Wealth platform, if I'm hearing you correctly, does that also inform some sort of asset allocation strategy for high net worth and wealth management clients as well?

[00:19:30] Colin Lynch: That's correct. Yeah, that is absolutely correct. that's right. And so, every month, we call it WAAC for short, we publish these monthly updates that gives our perspectives. Overweight, underweight, public equities, fixed income, alternative investments, IE the private markets, cash.

Those are the four big buckets. And then within each of those buckets take alternative investments. There's sub buckets where we say, are we overweight, underweight? So overall, right now, for instance, we are overweight public equities, were underweight fixed income, were overweight alternatives and private markets, and were underweight cash broadly.

And, but if I step back, I just say there, there is generally a role for private markets and my perspective on that role again is just simple. It's risk adjusted returns, right? So the role it should play is it should reduce the standard deviation of the portfolio and it should help amplify the returns in a total portfolio context.

So generally, we think that is the rationale. There's a critical element, which is liquidity, right? So investors must understand what their liquidity profile or needs are over time, right? And that's just critically important. Not to say there's no liquidity, there's plenty of liquidity in the private market space, but it, as we know, it's very different than in the public market.

So that's important for longer term investors. Generally we've seen allocations of up to 30% and perhaps even 40%. And then within that we've seen roughly call it 10%. So 10% of a total portfolio being an infrastructure up to there. Up to 10% being in real estate. Up to 10%, now even growing north of that, being in versions of the private credit world.

So whether it's mortgages which are, have been around pretty long as an investible asset class in the Canadian context, sort of as a separate asset class relative to the rest of the private debt world. And then we have seen the rest of the private debt world and private credit, IE sub investment grade private debt, grow over time.

And so, there's been some nuances. So venture cap is, we see that less prevalent overall. But you know, depending on the investor there has, there have been some more material allocations there. We send some allocations to natural resources. But if I step back, the biggest building blocks that we typically see, infrastructure, real estate, private debt, private credit.

We don't do private equity, but that's also a building block. Now on infrastructure, really interesting because if you think about it, like real estate, it's been around for as long as we've had societies, right? So the first cities were built on rivers. And why? Because rivers were the mechanism by which you transport goods.

And when you got to the shore, those were the first ports effectively. So infrastructure has been around, the roads, et cetera, just as long as we've had society. And so that gives that asset class a permanence and a relevancy and essential nature to society that will be there for as long as we have society.

But today, number one, governments are cash trapped. They need private sector investors. So there's significant demand for private sector investment. Number two, the nature of our needs as a globe are changing. I like your background because it actually highlights to me energy, right? Energy requirements are growing and they're significantly growing.

And then you layer on the AI, and that's sort of hyper scaling the growth of those energy demands while infrastructure is quite key. And so, when you sort of marry the dramatic growth and demand from society that used to be filled fully by governments that could no longer. Then, infrastructure is a very broad space and inclusive of that very broad space,

transportation, social, power and energy, is material growth in all of those spaces, but very quickly in the power and energy side. You get a construct and it's relatively early days for institutional investors in the infrastructure space relative to some of the other asset classes. You get a dynamic that looks actually quite constructive in terms of forward-looking opportunities for that space.

And so, we're quite excited by the space. We think that the space is highly relevant for institutional investors and we've had quite a lot of success there as well.

[00:24:35] Chris Battaglia: Before we move on, super informative from the infrastructure space, can you give our audience one or two specific sectors in the infrastructure where you think the best opportunities are going to be in the next three to five years?

[00:24:47] Colin Lynch: Yeah, I think on a global basis, energy and renewable energy still is very attractive. And I appreciate that in some parts of the world, there is a significant debate about renewable energy and there's significant shifts in policy on renewable energy. But let's step back a sec. Between now and 2050, the demand for power worldwide will increase by at least 75%.

And so what that says to me is it doesn't matter what the form of energy it is. We're going to need it. And so, given that dramatic demand requirement, A, given the cost of certain renewables has declined over time, B. And then per my discussion on Rabbalshede Kraft, the case study, it's not just creation of power, it is the availability and reliability of said power.

In Alberta, last year in 2024, there was critical power outages because that power was not available. And one of our companies helped the province of Alberta provide power because we operate battery storage. And so we store that power and then we provide it back in cases of those critical grid alerts. And we have learned, I think, the importance of storage of power as well.

And that is a space I think that will grow dramatically. And so, that's one side. There has been, as things have happened, so for instance, when COVID happened and as we began coming out of COVID, we made material investments in the port space because values had traded down. It wasn't really that attractive.

And by the way, similarly in the real estate space, we made material investments in the hotel space, right? And so both, as we just look at returns, a key element of returns is what's your incoming price?

And so in both of those spaces, we saw long-term relevancy and the ability to acquire great pricing.

And I would submit that as the trade story comes in and out and has volatility around it. There might be opportunities to acquire things at good pricing in the port space as well. And so we're very active in discussions on that side as well. But you know, certainly misalignment in pricing is a theme that as things happen, just given, again, the foundational essential nature of this asset class, we will need these assets.

And so if we can get it at on sale, then we're excited to do so.

[00:27:40] Chris Battaglia: Well, I feel like we can do a separate podcast just on energy transition and these elements. Hopefully, maybe we can spend some more time on it, but we did touch on the, and you mentioned the doubling down of, and the need for energy in the future.

Obviously many people are talking about the role of AI now and its massive amounts of power usage. AI also is an important catalyst for productivity and economic growth, obviously. Globally, we're seeing this in almost every part of the world. How are you thinking specifically about AI in your investment strategy going forward? Irrespective of sort of the connection with the energy component, but just as a general catalyst for growth and productivity. And how does it inform your view of asset allocation and where you're making your investment bets.

[00:28:41] Colin Lynch: Yeah, absolutely. So really there's what we invest in, directly and indirectly let's call it. And then there is, in terms of the AI theme, and then there's how we invest, right? So how we're using AI to invest. No doubt about it, first off, we're living in the fourth industrial age.

Right? And that's the digital age. And it's now gotten hypercharged now with AI. So, it's all around us and it's super relevant. But from the what we're investing in perspective, let's start on the direct basis. So what in the private space can you directly invest in that touches the AI theme? First thing that comes up?

Data centers. And there's multiple pieces to data centers. So we have, both on our private debt team and our infrastructure team, looking at data center investments for a decade. And there's multiple types of data centers. The centers that are getting the most focus today are those that serve the hyperscalers, right?

And these are very large format data centers, very connected to these hyperscaler companies. IE the NVIDIAs of the world, the Amazons, et cetera. I'll go back to something I mentioned before, which is the elements of return, incoming price, how you add value over time, outgoing price.

There is tremendous uncertainty as to what your actual returns are going to be.

So the challenge is can you acquire at a great incoming price? Both our infrastructure and our private debt teams have been challenged on that. The incoming price. The how you sort of manage through is more clear, particularly just given the tremendous growth in demand.

Now side note, you might be competing with some of your customers because they're now in the market of delivery. So supply is a little bit of a concern, which then impacts your exit because your exit assumes there's demand. So if there's excess supply, some questions there. But you know, the biggest question for us is what is the incoming price?

And the incoming price has, I would submit, gotten quite high. And if one has return objectives that you're looking to meet. Not impossible, but quite challenging, right? So you have to be very creative to get something that meets those return objectives.

So that's the direct side. And in that, by the way, direct side, one of the most foundational understandings, so I get asked a lot, is data centers real estate or infra? I believe it's infra. Why? Because you have to really understand the power and how that power gets to that data center. The reliability of, and the underwriting of that power is critically important to your financial success with that data center.

So personally, I believe it's infra. That's direct, but there's indirect. And indirect sort of goes, okay, if I'm in the real estate space, can I lease space to data center companies? Can I take advantage of that opportunity? And sort of, and as a result, if you look at the incoming price again, so can I find an office building, maybe it's not a CBD office, but can I find an office building and can I lease that office building to a few AI related companies and thereby get a good basis because nobody likes office these days. But can I get great occupancy with companies that have fantastic cash flow and balance sheets so I have good comfort on the credit. And so therefore, get us to a place where office might be more attractive in the future. So again, if you think income and asset management and disposal that's a much more interesting play, for me actually, in terms of where you're sort of doing return seeking.

So I would submit, we are very focused on, call it the direct side. And we've been underwriting a lot of opportunities in the data center space across the world where we're doing some in Japan, actually. Some in Europe in the US, et cetera. But we've also been more interested in that sort of indirect space,

[00:33:26] Chris Battaglia: Very interesting approach and a and very sensible integrated approach, which, I think should really resonate well with investors.

We don't have a lot of time left. We need to get back to Japan at some point, and at the risk of painting everything with one brush and talking about the inflationary situation in Japan. And I mentioned it being an inflationary scenario now as it's, as if it's something new because it is something new, right?

There's been decades of deflation in that country and you and I have spent some significant time there. And, you have are engaged at a very high level with asset allocators, asset owners in Japan now. And it's a real factor to, to deal with and to manage. If we can sort of, combine two of my questions, which is your view of Japan in general and then your view of Japan and working with investors in this new inflationary environment after or after decades of deflation, which is a very stark contrast, right? It's one thing if you go through regular economic cycles like Canada and the US might do, or Western Europe. But the reality is, that Japan has had decades and decades of a deflationary environment, and now a modest amount of inflation is quite a big deal.

So if you could talk a little bit about how inflation protection should be thought of with regard to investment philosophy and approach. How you potentially approach that differently from other asset managers around the world. and what's unique about your experience in working with specifically the asset owner community and the investment community in Japan that might be interesting to our audience.

[00:35:15] Colin Lynch: Yeah. So, why don't I start with the last first and then talk about inflation. I love going to Japan and it's just an incredible society. It's a very respectful society. And I would submit humble in a number of different ways. Very curious to understand, to learn, to grow, et cetera.

And investors have had. Success, right? There are several very significant and major entities and it's always impressive to learn how those entities achieve the success that they've achieved. But it's great also to know that you don't have to be tremendously huge to take advantage of. Investments around the world.

And, one of the side notes is I think the last five years have taught us across every space, infrastructure, the real estate space, private equity, bigger investments are not necessarily better. So, and I think that is fantastic and I think that gives a lot of hope to investors worldwide, including in Japan.

You could be a small,

[00:36:35] Chris Battaglia: Why in the last five years? Is that just sort of post COVID or our new sort of economic environment? What about the last five years that is so special?

[00:36:46] Colin Lynch: So, you look at some of the investors that put a half a billion, a billion dollars in some of the biggest real estate investments in 2019. They were in offices.

And not only did the performance not live up to expectations, but the liquidity didn't as well. The thesis back then is the biggest assets would attract global pools of capital that would want "trophy" investment opportunities. Well, in 2021, 2022, and 2023, increasingly the lineup of investors looking for said trophy assets approach zero.

And similar for the infra space. Disposing a $10 billion infra asset is a little hard At the end of the day. And so, not to say it's not high quality, it's just to say the thesis, pre COVID, I think was solidly bigger was better. And I think we have learned as a world, as an investment world, that's not necessarily the case.

You can actually have, it's more evident in the public markets. Sometimes small caps outperform large caps. And similarly, I think in the private space, sometimes large investments outperform small and other times small outperform large. But I think that there was a view coming into COVID that, it's a bigger asset,

so therefore it must be better.

[00:38:13] Chris Battaglia: So you're going to be more selective obviously. And what does that mean for mitigating inflation specifically?

[00:38:20] Colin Lynch: Yeah. So inflation's really critical, obviously. The best way to mitigate is to invest in quality, right? And so really understand what the quality is.

It's not necessarily size, right? It's in the infrastructure space, who is your credit with? Is it with truly high quality credit? What is the nature of said contract? So back in energy space, who's taking the energy, over how long, and are there step ups every year? And what's the step up based on?

Is it based off of cpi? Is it based off of something else? Is it based off of GDP growth? Is it based off of tax revenue collection? What is it? And the understanding of that gives you then comfort as to, is your investment playing that inflation protection role, right? And that needs to be done across all the asset classes.

And the higher the quality, which again, is not necessarily connected to size, but the higher the quality, the better your sense of inflation protection. Because again, it's not just the asset management through that hold period, which is going to how does, the revenue track and also how do the expenses track, which goes back to the point about having a great operator because that operator can help you keep the expenses under control.

Because that's important. Because at the end of the day, it's operating income that we're really solving for. But also on the disposal side, right? High liquidity gives you the opportunity to dispose when you'd like. And that is obviously critical for, again, that inflation protection.

So it's really, that's how I sort of think about it. It's, call it a bottom up view that then sort of informs one's view as to how is all of your investments across the asset class performing the job of protecting against inflation.

[00:40:29] Chris Battaglia: Colin, I could go on for hours speaking with you, and I can clearly see the investment ethos of your company and your own views as being something that would resonate with in investors in Japan and globally, in fact.

But the high conviction, the focus on quality, the focus on focus, if you will, I think is, it comes through loud and clear. I would look forward to having another opportunity to have a more in depth conversation on any one of these topics. But I think giving our audience an overview of your connection to the global markets and specifically on the alternative and private market side of things is really invaluable.

And, I think, particularly during this time where we are now seeing obviously some stubborn inflation, we have new economic figures, albeit maybe not the most accurate yet quite, in North America or in the United States. But clearly inflation is here to stay and alternatives, and a lot of the work that you're doing plays in a very important role for investors in managing, mitigating and providing diversification and non correlation in portfolios.

So, I thank you for sharing your views and thank you for also coming with us to Japan and sharing these views with our audience at the Global Fiduciary Symposium in Japan. And through our, partnership and, our audience with Advisorpedia, on the wealth and advisory side. So, thank you again, but it was great pleasure and, and also with our common views about music and Japan and all things investing.

It was a great pleasure. Thank you, Colin.

[00:42:09] Colin Lynch: Absolutely. Thank you.